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Death of a Pornographer Interview with Vincent Alexander & Nicolas C Grey
Nic, your last book - This Dog Barking - came out in 2017 - how did it do?
Nic: Alright. Harper Collins India published it in 2017 - its initial print run of 2000 sold out. But you can still get a copy as they are reprinting - it can be quite expensive if you look on Amazon - best to contact us at the Headache website to get it at a reasonable price.
The book is about UG Krishnamurti, a fairly obscure Indian philosopher; I guess you could call him. It was a complex subject, what we wanted is for people who were already familiar with this type of Indian philosophy and UG and for people with no interest in it, to both be able to get something from the book. On an anecdotal level, it seems we achieved this goal. The audience was a cross over between people interested in the subject, and people that liked comics, probably leaning towards the former. I’m happy with how it came out and getting the book completed and published was one of the most interesting times of my life.
With the books I work with a small group of people - a team, really - that make all the difference, they make it a real pleasure, it’s a solitary thing, drawing, and having those people involved make it all worth the effort.
What appealed to you about the Death of a Pornographer idea?
Nic: I meet Vincent (the author) through my friend James - who wrote This Dog Barking - The Strange Story of UG Krishnamurti. He is his brother. Although I don’t know him as well as James, I always enjoyed his company and his laconic sense of humour. The three of us, in our pasts, have had our problems with addiction. Though no laughing matter, it’s undeniable there are some good stories surrounding that lifestyle.
Vincent worked in Soho for many years. He didn’t talk about it all that much as I think it was fairly traumatic for him, but he would occasionally share anecdotes about his time working in the sex shops . They were mostly funny, in a tragic kind of way. My father (also an artist - Stephen Grey) grew up in Soho and I had been around that area , but unless you are involved in that sex and gangster scene , it’s a closed world, so, it was both interesting and revealing at the same time.
At first, i thought the book maybe just a collection of these anecdotes, that would have been fine, but it became clear that Vincent had a story to tell that went deeper than just some funny stories. I had no idea how the book would go, but as it developed i felt Vincent had managed to convey something almost spiritual in the story , transcendent. And in that context, in that place , with those characters, I found it quite remarkable. It’s almost like he has managed to create a feeling between the words , I’m not sure how it works . So, while I was initially attracted to just the idea of giving people a peek into this closed world , it became something else . It has kept all the humour but has this whole other mysterious layer added, which I hadn’t expected.
Visually and artistically I was ambivalent about it. On the plus side , I knew I would get to draw lots of depressed looking people, and for whatever reason, most people I draw end up looking depressed, on the down side , it’s set in a real place , so that involves drawing real buildings and real streets and that was , I knew , going to be a challenge for me .
What about you, Vince, why did you write the book?
Vin: I wanted to tell a story about the decline of Soho. From what it once was, to what it is now. From a place i loved, full of life & character, to just another overpriced faceless place, &,knowing Nic & his work, couldn't think of anyone better to show this through his art.
How did you start working in the Adult Entertainment business – was it something you always wanted to do ?
Vin: No, it wasn’t something that i’d ever thought about. I’d moved to London after a few disastrous house moves & jobs transfers elsewhere around England. From Oxford I ended up in East London after a successful rescue mission by my brother. I started with good intentions – got a job in Bow working 12 hour shifts in a factory – it was awful – but kept it up until set off for my shift one day – turned around on the way there & decided ‘no’ –& headed back home – spent next few months living on , I don’t know what. But had to get a job. Applied to an agency for a job as a binman. Got it. But turned up late & had missed it. The agency guy told to me to hang about & asked ‘have you done retail?’ I said ‘yes’ & he sent me to a shop in Soho. Didn’t know it was a sex shop. I was turned away initially by the owner, he didn’t think I was right. But someone came running out to say I was. Took me back in.
And I spent next 20 years with them. And I loved it.
It was a family. The sex bit was not a big part of it. Never thought about it. What we were selling. It was a family - we looked after each other. Make money – run the business - that was it.
People have different views on sex work and prostitution. What is your personal view on it?
Nic: I don’t have any moral views either way as to whether it’s a good or bad thing. My personal view is that is quite a sad thing. We all (or the majority of us) need, in the world we find ourselves in, to sell our labour in some form to keep alive. Those that have nothing still have their bodies. It’s the system boiled down to its most base form. There are probably many reasons why people buy or rent the bodies of other people, but I think pleasure is only a small part of it - and not the main one. It’s loneliness, it’s longing, it’s escape, it’s an expression of alienation in its most fundamental form. Both parties are engaged in an act ( assuming both parties are not under overt coercion ) that is trying to satisfy needs that are simply not going to be meet in that format . People are not objects, but the world invites and encourages us to see everything as an object, even people, so much so that this gets internalized. You can feel this in Soho, there are the neon lights, the promise of something, but no one ever finds it. It’s like people lost in a fake world, that have given up on ever finding their way home , so, are just stuck there , confused, lonely , alienated .
It also has the feeling of the spiral of addiction. It can be viewed as just a striped down version of the lives most people live, but so raw that it takes on an absurdist character.
Vin:
I don’t live in London any more; I can’t talk about how things are now.
Is it an acceptable way to make money and live? No, not for me - Never. it's a shame - 'prostitution is a free choice?’ - nah – and anyway, Death of a Pornographer is not a story about that - it's a love story - just set under the sky of Soho
There is a Chinese proverb - ‘A man without a smiling face must not open a shop’. What qualities does a sex shop salesperson need?
Vin: The one thing you don't do is smile. Not in a sex shop. You needed honesty and loyalty to your bosses. And awareness was a plus. You really needed eyes in the back of your head, from people thieving. Particularly in Soho at the time. There was one old man that used to come in, must have been in his late seventies, used to steal every now & again. Magazine or a bottle of poppers or something. I never had the heart to stop him. He was the worst shop lifter in the world. But it would make me smile to think of him walking out the door and into the street with a magazine under his coat thinking ''I've still got it!''
Honesty is essential in that world. If you weren't honest, you'd have been in the front door, and out the back. Gone. There was an air of tension. It could be a little unnerving at times.
As you say, Death Of a Pornographer is set in the 1990s. We live in a time of uncertainty. A lot of people don't know what the future holds, but worry it will be dark. What is the role of nostalgia in art?
Nic: Yes, Death of a Pornographer is set in the 90,s, but not overtly so. I think it has a timeless quality to it , it’s never really clear what the year is , and this fits with Soho, of being in this little bubble. Of course, Soho has changed now, and the Soho that is in the book no longer exists, so, I guess that will produce a nostalgic feeling perhaps.
I’m not that keen on explicitly nostalgic movies, or TV shows. They are fine if it’s just a secondary function of the story, but to just indulge in a nostalgia trip I find boring. Old people get nostalgic because they miss being young , and that can be confused with thinking the world was better back then , from my personal point of view, there are aspects of the world that have always sucked , they did when I was young, and they do now . I understand that a lot of politics plays on people’s nostalgia, it’s an easy way to manipulate emotion, so, as a primary motive, I don’t like nostalgia in art, but like I said, if it serves the story or idea it can be great .
I like objects from the past, I like old photos, old advertisements, old toys , anything. The world we live in now can seem like a simulation - objects from the past express a kind of mourning for a world that had at least one foot in “ the real “. Objects where more carefully made for their utility value, even the advertising is more interesting because it still hints at the product or objects’ utility value. Now, that is buried under so many other layers it’s almost gone. This is my own personal expression of nostalgia. I find it all a bit pathetic, but, I can’t help myself.
Vincent? Nostalgia? No future in it? A thing of the past?
Vin: It may be a thing of the past, but it’s important. It’s important to look back on the past. See where you were, what you done, & where you are now. Good or Indifferent. But I never look back in upset or anger now. It’s pointless. But it’s all relevant. I had some great times working in Soho,& living in London. But also terrible times. I had great relationships & friendships during that time & afterwards, but also looking back terrible ones. But it all happened. Could I have done things differently or behaved better towards some people, of course, & I regret some things terribly. (Never trust a person with ‘no regrets’). But what you do with that is a different story.
Writing the book has brought up so many things. & I did go back to Soho a few years ago to research the book. And, just to see. Visit old haunts, have a look around. It was a depressing trip, to be honest.
In your first drafts of the text for DOP you had included a few quotes from pop songs . . .
Vin: Yeah, In the first drafts each chapter was headed by a song title or lyric from a song. Off the top of my head, without digging out the first draft, (which is huge) one of the chapters was called 'Dreams of Leaving' off of Human League’s fantastic Travelogue album. 'House of Cards' Radiohead.
. It was kind of for my own amusement in a way. I'm obsessed with music. Though saying that, each song title or lyric did have a reference to what was happening in that part of the story, or a particular meaning to me. They weren't just randomly picked. But when we looked back at it as the book began to take shape, it didn't seem to work. It upset the flow I think. Both the written side & the way it was unfolding through Nic's storytelling through his artwork, It just no longer seemed to fit, to the point that the first few chapters, after we took out the chapter headings and just reverted to, like, ‘Chapter 1, Chapter 2’ etc. but even that, it just didn't fit. So the chapter breaks were also taken out. I like how it is now. No headings, no numbers. The story flows & unfolds.
Saying all that, yes, there are a few lines that i left in - in dialogue. They're there, and if someone stumbles across one or two, great. If they read past it, I don't mind.
Nic, I know you’ve been drawing DOP on and off for the past 2 or 3 years - what else have you been doing art-wise?
Nic: It’s probably been closer to 5 or 6 years.
I found DOP difficult to do in the beginning, as it is set in a real place and I had to find my way into it, towards the end, I found it easy. I guess I found it difficult to invent this world, but once I did, it was there already and it’s like it drew itself. Drawing graphic novels is hard, at least I find it hard , there are certain restraints I have to impose for it to work , and I can get frustrated, artistically, by those , so, I find that i need to take breaks and do other things.
All I do is draw, i rarely go out , I’m not very social , so, to relax from drawing I’ll draw something else . I used to have a gallery where I would do shows, of drawings, so I would do a lot of that. The gallery shut down, so I do less of those these days, I still do the occasional stand alone big piece of artwork, but I’ve been doing a lot more comics. I stated an underground comic with my friend in Sweden called Headache comixs . (It’s called Headache because that is what Cambodians refer to as any problem, big or small ), it’s an anthology type of thing, so, others people’s stuff as well. The underground comic scene here in Cambodia seems to consist of basically just me, there really isn’t much interest in it , in other parts of the world it’s a thing, and it gets bigger every year . I miss underground comics , part of my motivation to do Headache was just because I missed them , I thought I would make my own .
I’m also doing a book of strips called Life Sucks, and working on another graphic novel that mainly appears in parts in issues of Headache. Mineshaft, an underground comic based in the USA have been printing some things of mine, which is nice. It’s hard to make money out of any of this so I will do the odd commission. So, I’ve probably doing too many things at the same time. It’s nice doing Headache as I get to see something finished that does not take 5 years , that’s part of the pleasure of doing the occasional stand alone piece, but I feel like I’m always behind and there is not enough time,
Even though I more or less draw every day for at least 7 hours. I still feel like I’m not that good at it , and it’s hard not to hate everything I draw , but when I feel like that I just tell myself it’s all just good practice.
Yes, you live in Cambodia, but you lived in London in the 90s. Did you go to Soho much?
Nic: Not really. I was addicted to hard drugs during the 90s, I mostly lived in East London and did not leave the relatively small area where I bought and used drugs. I did end up in Soho on a few occasions but I don’t know why or what happened, it was probably drug related or some very petty criminal thing.
Which areas of London did you hang-out in?
Nic: East ham, and the surrounding areas - Plaistow, Canning Town. I think I got housed there with the help of the council, I can’t really remember how I ended up there. Those years I was a full time druggie, I was begging on the streets, shop lifting, it was all pretty grim.
Sounds alright to me. You haven’t been to the UK for about 15 years. Do you miss it?
Nic: There are a few things I miss. The major thing I miss is being viewed as just another person, in Cambodia I’m always seen as a foreigner. I came to Cambodia for family reasons, I was never really the travelling type , so, I find there is a lot of assumptions made about the type of person I am just because I am here , in the UK there isn’t any of that , I can just melt into the background, I sometimes miss that .
The other things I miss are superficial, like good bookshops, flea markets, etc. Of course I have friends and family that I miss as well. Culturally, I never much identified with being British, whatever that means. I like Cambodia and feel like this is my home more than I ever felt that about England. There is a ragged broken down quality to a lot of things here in Cambodia that I find comfortable, in some ways I can find the UK quite alienating.
I don’t speak much Khmer (the Cambodian language) so I’m not exposed to the advertising, culture cues, etc, as I was when I was in the UK. I also don’t drink alcohol and I’m no longer a drug addict. I cleaned up a year or 2 before I came, maybe that has made a difference.
What kind of things did you used to draw when you were a kid?
Nic: I have been basically drawing the same kind of thing, more or less, all my life. I remember drawing a picture of Soho when I was 11 or 12, with the sex shops etc. Not so much comics, but street scenes. Hard to say why I draw what I draw , I think it’s partly a fascination with the chaos i see, partly a revulsion to it , partly a desire to understand it , partly to document how I see it , as , especially when I was a kid , it seemed I didn’t see what I was seeing reflected back in the culture. Maybe there was something wrong with me or maybe not, still trying to work that out.
How long do you draw for each day?
Nic: All I do is draw. Very occasionally I’ll take a break for a week or so if I’m travelling, I don’t use a sketchbook. But mostly I draw all night, from 9 or 10pm till 5 or 6am in the morning. Different drawings have different feelings, but once I get into it, I’m in it, not really thinking about it. But different things feel different to get into.
Ever get bored of drawing?
Nic: Like I said, if I find some project getting a bit too restraining, I’ll take a break and draw something else. Maybe it sounds strange that I relax from drawing by doing more drawing. If for whatever reason I cannot draw for a period of time, I start to feel quite depressed. I think I have gotten used to creating my own little world and living in it. Probably, it’s because I find the outside world quite difficult, stressful, confusing, sad, and I’m happier in retreat from it. Maybe that’s unhealthy and bad for me , I’m not sure , I could probably be more balanced, but I’m not prone to what , I guess , most people would think of as a healthy and balanced life .
A part of me has always viewed my obsession with drawing as a form of mental illness. I can sometimes feel guilty that I draw all the time. Even though I do get positive reinforcement, praise etc for my drawings, I still don’t think I’m particularly good at it , the mistakes I see in my work do bother me . I’m unsure whether my drawing all the time is one big avoidance strategy, but . . . whatever, I’m 52 now so I’m stuck with it. And, I guess, as I get older, i just accept who I am more.
Was there ever a period in your life where you didn’t draw?
Nic: When I was a drug addict I didn’t draw as much, but still drew. It affected my drawing badly, I wasted a lot of years, I regret that. For a few years, towards the end of my addiction, I was probably hardly drawing at all. When my daughter was born I looked after her and had a lot less time to draw. I don’t regret that as it was a wonderful thing to look after a child. Sometimes I’ve had to work at some crappy job and had less time to draw, manual labour etc. But i still did it. Those are the times I’ve drawn the least. These last 16 years I would say I have probably drawn most, 7 - 9 hours a night, 6 days a week, the occasional holiday.
Vince, you worked in Soho just as the internet began to take off. Was it immediately obvious to the community that this would kill the long-term prospects for Ye Olde Sex Shoppe?
Vin: When i first started it was more magazine sales than anything. Because the mags were hardcore. Although not strictly legal in some cases, as long as they were wrapped, you could sell them. DVDs were still in their infancy, and they weren't hardcore. It was still the R18 certificate system in those days. Meaning these R18 films could only be sold in sex shops.
But sales were poor. Because they were shit.
There was still so much censorship. You'd have been better off watching Carry on Camping. It was when this (R18) was dropped, and hardcore was allowed, mostly uncensored, that the gates opened up, and DVDs suddenly flew out. In its heyday you couldn't fill the shelves quick enough.
So the DVDs did carry us (sex shops) through, & they could have still i believe. I don't think it's as simple as saying the internet killed off the shops. Internet porn was around, yes, though nothing like today. Accessibility to porn was nowhere near what it is today, and if you look at it like that, Soho was already changing. It was already gone.
Would a place like how Soho used to be with the internet now as it is, with the content that it has, survive? I personally think so. We (Soho) lost control. It was slowly eaten up, long before the internet exploded with access to adult content. It'd already started to be eaten up, hollowed out - & what they've spat out is what you have today. It is hard to say, but it wasn't just the internet. There were so many other factors, Money, Big Business, Greed, I could go on.
What is the best gig you ever went to?
Vin: Spacemen 3 at Hammersmith Studios in 1988. I hear Motorhead used to play to extreme levels of volume and The Who I think. But, never having seen these, it doesn't really matter. Because I can tell you hands down, that that Spacemen gig was the loudest & best thing I'd seen or heard. The building was shaking. Literally shaking - the walls. And the lights, the smoke. Jason & Pete sat on their stools. Heads down. It was amazing! I still think about that gig, it comes in and out of mind, on a weekly basis.
Nic?
I saw Nick Cave just after he left the birthday and when he was called nick cave and the cavemen, I was young, maybe 18 or so. I remember the support band played the entire set with their backs turned from the audience, and the opening nick cave song was “A Box for Black Paul”, so, just him on his own, a foreshadowing of his later work, then the band went to full on mayhem. I found most music at that time very uninteresting, so, this was something different and, I don’t know, I liked it . I saw Tom Waits when he did his Rain Dogs tour , I remember being in the front row and being amazed about how big the veins in his neck bulged when he sang and his double jointed hands when he played the piano , it was like he had mutated to be able to play the songs. I saw The Residents ( a kind of art band, famous for their bizarre sets ) i was high on LSD , so don’t remember anything about it really expect it was the weirdest show I had ever seen, but, I guess that doesn’t count. I saw a band called Crywank here in Cambodia, and they were great. I don’t really like gigs because I don’t like crowds or loud music
OK, lads. Thanks for that. Good luck with the book - when is it coming out?
Nic: When I finish it.
